Onto the third installment of this series - the NME's list of the Greatest Albums of All Time, published on October 2 1993.
Here, it's interesting to look at what has Dropped Away from the present's vantage point, but also to compare to the previous Greatest Albums List from 1985 - to see what's Dropped Away and what's Risen Up.
First, though, an attempt to clarify the comparative approach at work here.... I suppose what I am attempting to imagine is what a NME-like publication of today, with a similar selectorate (mostly under thirty), would take to be the Canon of Rock & Pop: the major achievements that everyone should listen to.
Of course, there are publications that still do this surveying-recorded-history type of list - Pitchfork, Rolling Stone - but I'm going with a more Britcentric perspective. And I don't think there is an equivalent to NME anymore... everything's too specialized, fragmented, gone down its own narrower path.
Mind you, I'm not sure NME itself was "NME" by 1993, if you get me - i.e. the broad, we-cover-everything music paper I grew up reading. Indeed the first striking aspect of this list is the backtracking from the hugely improved inclusion of black music in the '85 list, which would probably have been the high point of the NME's critics's (if not the NME readership's) assimilation of anti-rockist values. There's still a decent amount of non-white artistry but it's discernibly decreased. And Marvin Gaye's What's Goin' On has slid from #1 to #4.
Okay, the full list in text form is here (and also at the bottom of the post)
I'll do Dropped Away first, and then Risen Up next.
DROPPED AWAY
5 The Stone Roses The Stone Roses 1989
I expect the generation that's now aging firmly into their fifties-and-older clings fast to their collective adoration of this record, but the one after, and the one after that, surely find its eminence to be mystifying. Classic "you had to be there, you had to be then" record.
9 Public Enemy It takes a nation of millions to hold us back 1988
Personally I prefer the first and third albums; never quite understood why this is the Accredited Classic. But that's beside the point; I don't think PE are really on the list of things people feel they need to hear. Also, some of their opinions ("Sophisticated Bitch", "Meet the G that Killed Me") would be given less allowance today.
19 De La Soul 3 Feet High and Rising 1989
To not drop away, it probably helps to have done a string of great and/or impactful records - it bolsters the artist's purchase on the pantheon, their chance of having a perch. Beyond De La Soul's self-cancelling, quick-withered career, I think this record also probably would sound a bit... rickety to modern ears. If it places at all, it would be much lower.
21 Primal Scream Screamadelica 1991
See the Stone Roses.
23 R.E.M. Automatic for the People 1992
This seems like "parochialism of the present" - going with the album released a year before this poll was taken, as opposed to, say, Murmur (to me, far and away this group's best chance at a pantheon perch). I've no real sense of whether R.E.M. are a group that people keep discovering generation after generation, as appears to happen with Joy Division, The Smiths, The Cure. But I suspect not.
24 Elvis Presley The Sun Sessions 1976
This inclusion, which I don't remember being in the previous two Greatest Lists, seems like your classic "obedience to the rockcritic superego" genuflection. Monumental music, obviously. But in the same way that no one would have a reproduction of the Mona Lisa on the living room wall, I find it hard to believe that any of the selectorate in '93 had this platter spinning on their turntables regularly. Today, even less so.
27 the Jesus and Mary Chain - Psychocandy 1985
I suggested that pantheonic prestige for a classic album is bolstered by having done a bunch of other classics or very-good albums. This would be the opposite syndrome: where persistence, a mounting but steadily less startling discography, slowly chips away at the stature of the one classic album, which starts to seem like a fluke. J&MC's music from Automatic onwards - perhaps really from Darklands onwards - slowly blows their cool, blows it away. They come to seem like a fairly conventional and surprisingly cautious alternative rock band, chuntering on way beyond their moment. In '93, the memory-imprint of what they were in '85 was strong enough to ensure this high placing. Three decades later, it's faint, if not completely faded.
29 Jimi Hendrix Are you experienced? 1967
30 James Brown Live at The Apollo, october 24, 1962 1963
31 Patti Smith Horses 1975
32 Stevie Wonder Innervisions 1973
These were all in the '85 List (maybe it was a different Wonder album - same string of masterpieces though) and seemed to me Dropped Away.
34 Frank Sinatra - Songs for Swingin' Lovers! 1956
This is a great record - a personal favorite from childhood, as one of the 20 or so LPs my parents owned. The first side especially, I know inside out, could probably sing all the way through. I'm a little puzzled by its out-of-the-blue appearance in this list - I wonder what revisionisms and rehabilitative processes it reflected (the easy-listening revival was still a few years off - not that this is exactly EZ, but it's smooth, it's sophisticated, it's got the swinging Nelson Riddle arrangements). At any rate, I can't imagine today's under-30s selectorate selecting it.
35 Otis Redding Otis Blue - Otis Redding Sings Soul 1965
A survivor from the previous List... my thoughts on soul already aired there.
37 Public Enemy - Fear of a Black Planet 1990
A great record - their best in fact. I wonder if it's on the radar of today's hip listeners. I doubt it.
39 Elvis Costello and the Attractions - Blood & Chocolate 1986
If any EC album clings to canonic status (my doubts about that expressed in the previous go-round), it wouldn't be this turgid effort, with its low count of memorable tunes.
42 New Order - Technique 1989
Classic single after classic single, but I'm not sure there is a classic album in New Order's discography. Power Corruption and Lies? I remember the high point ("Your Silent Face") but little else. Low Life? I have a stronger memory of the packaging than the contents. I have met people who rep for Movement, a barmy opinion. Brotherhood - nah! But this album Technique seems the most undistinguished of the lot of them - I can't imagine it's any fan's favorite.
Now if it was the Top 100 Singles being done today, I can see people still voting for "Blue Monday" or even "Everything Gone Green" or "Temptation" . They just don't seem like an albums band to me. There's no Queen Is Dead in their back catalogue. More to the point, there's no Closer or Unknown Pleasures.
45 The Orb - The Orb's Adventures beyond the Ultraworld 1991
Parochialism of the present again. The indie-dance, baggy, techno-that-rockpapers-can-get-with moment still lingering into '93. If this List had been drawn up a year later, probably Underworld's Dubnobasswithmyhead would be on it.
47 Iggy Pop - Lust for Life 1977
It's a great song.... is it a great album? I don't think this would be Iggy's inclusion on Today's List. I'd like to think it would be Fun House, or at least Raw Power.... and if we're talking solo, then The Idiot, surely?
49 Hüsker Dü Warehouse : songs and stories 1987
In the comments to the 1985 post, David Gunnip mentioned the twilight of the Dü. I sadly concur - and also think if they had a presence on a contemporary equivalent list, it would be Zen Arcade or New Day Rising. I wonder if this appearance is a knock-on of Sugar-love (never acquired the taste myself).
50 New Order - Low Life - 1985
See earlier comments on Technique.
51 Echo & the Bunnymen - Heaven Up Here 1981
They don't seem to be part of the contemporary conversation, as far as I can gauge. A shame. I would personally rate Crocodiles as the closer to perfect album.
52 Blondie - Parallel Lines 1978
I can picture people today still rating Blondie as a Great Singles Band, but the idea of listening to a whole album all the way through, even one as hit-packed as Parallel Lines, it doesn't compute for me - in terms of a contemporary consciousness, as opposed to a personal evaluative statement. (That said, I don't think I would ever feel the impulse to listen to a Blondie album all the way through, and I'm not sure I ever have. They seem like the New Wave ABBA - a Greatest Hits album, especially a Greatest Hits CD with the longer running time, is unbeatable... a family favorite for the car. But who really wants to plod through the original elpees looking for 'deep cuts'?).
I wonder if this sudden appearance was a knock-on of all those groups like the Primitives and Darling Buds, and more recently Garbage, bringing Blondie back as a reference point?
53 Gram Parsons - Grievous Angel 1974
GP was very hip right in the middle of the '80s, at the height of the trad Americana boom, the country-ish flavor that entered into alternative rock for a few years... He was a real reference point... I remember being quite enamored of that "and I thought about a calico bonnet / from Cheyenne to Tennessee" song. I cannot imagine he is anywhere on the map today, though.
54 Dusty Springfield - Dusty in Memphis 1969
Puzzled by this one, I must say. Did the Pet Shop Boys put her back on the map? (Question: where are the Pet Shops Boys on this list? Nowadays they are widely revered as the greatest pop writers of their day, or right up there. But in '93, they don't seem to be on the map).
57 The Jam - All Mod Cons 1978
I suppose mod had become a bit of a reference point again, and Weller was stirring into solo life, after the dwindling away of the Style Council, the unreleased house-influenced album. Britpop would firm up his stature considerably. But I don't think there was any Jam staining the '85 List, so puzzled that it's popped up here.
59 Mothers of Invention We're only in it for the money 1968
Surprised that this clings on in the affections of Britrockcrits circa '93.
69 Burning Spear - Marcus Garvey 1975
Great record... I think this is its first appearance in an NME List .... perhaps it's a question of timing... dub didn't really exist enough yet in '74 to make an impression on that List.... by '85 it would have seemed passé... indeed with Jamaican music now deep into the dancehall era, reggae as a whole had faded as a critical interest or influence on new emerging bands .... but by '93, dub and roots are much more present in the music culture as an inspiration and a revered ancestral source. There's also been a lot of reggae reissuing going on by this point. Not that this inclusion is indicated as the dub version, Garvey's Ghost.... but as I recall, Island's CD reissue included both versions, so I suspect the dub factor is part of the album's elevation.
70 Tom Waits Rain Dogs 1985
Waits plummeting hugely since Swordfishtrombones's appearance at a ludicrous #6 in 1985.... and now Rain Dogs, the follow-up, has displaced that album. Clearly the hardcore fan's choice. Today - I should think nobody gives a monkey's either way.
71 PJ Harvey - Dry - 1993
She does strike me as someone that younger generations don't know much about.... if she was to be on a List, I think it would be either Rid of Me or the one after that or maybe England's Shaking. But what do I know? (And in fact Dry would the one I would pull out, if I was ever to feel the impulse, which I never do. Unlike, say, Liz Phair's Exile).
73 Spiritualized - Lazer Guided Melodies 1992
I listened to this again not so long ago, for the first time since the time.... it's a rather lovely listen, still.... but I cannot imagine it figuring much in the contemporary consciousness.
76 The Go-Betweens - 16 Lovers Lane 1988
I guess this placing is down to survivors on the NME staff from the period when they had the 'Tweens on the front cover and thought they were the saviors of literate pop. I would not have picked this attempted pop-crossover album if I was to vote for any of theirs... Before Hollywood or Liberty Belle maybe. Decidedly Dropped Away
79 Jam - Sound Affects 1980
See comments on All Mod Cons
81 The KLF - The White Room 1991
This episode in Brit popcrit - this escapade in Brit pop - seems lost in its little pocket of time.
82 Birthday Party - Junkyard 1982
I am going to save my thoughts on BP until I do my Purely Personal Wholly Subjective Dropped Away List... I should think if any trace of this outfit would make it to a contemporary canon, it would be one of Cave and the Bad Seeds later albums. "Later' meaning '90s or even from the last decade or so.
84 Dexys Midnight Runners Searching for the Young Soul Rebels 1980
This episode in Brit popcrit - this escapade in Brit pop - seems lost in its little pocket of time.
86 The Pogues - Rum, Sodomy & the Lash 1985
When Shane shuffled off, I was staggered by the flood of testimonials about the greatness of his songwriting and his singing - they came from fellow musicians and songwriters, but also from literati, people who wield words for a living. Such that I gritted my teeth and actually listened to some of the songs cited as poetic marvels - read through the lyrics too - just to see if my original opinion would survive.
Anyway, thinking back, I don't believe any of the tributes came from an admirer under the age of 50.
87 The Clash - Give 'Em Enough Rope 1978
Where Strummer & Jones & the Other Two stand in the scheme of things came up for discussion in the comments of the previous outing... As I combed through this '93 list, the debut and London Calling passed on through, but the line must be drawn at this stodgy effort. Is this some sort of knock-on effect from the New Wave of New Wave, Manic Street Preachers et al, bringing them back as a reference point?
88 Elvis Costello - King of America 1986
This was the point in the real-time timeline when I started to feel exhausted by EC... it's an album I never warmed to (even less so than the other LP he released in '86, Blood and Chocolate) and remember little about it, beyond a general "T-Bone Burnett ick" aura to proceedings. The album cover doesn't help. Critics, at the time and probably for quite a while after, thought EC was at a new peak of his powers on these two albums. For reasons explored in the previous go-round, I don't think he is on today's map - and if he was, it would not be for this album.
89 Billy Bragg - Talking with the Taxman about Poetry 1986
Mid-80s esteem / relevance, already fading, destined to fade more. As with Dylan, I like his songs so much more covered by others (but really in his case, it's song singular: Kirsty MacColl's 's version of "A New England")
91 Madonna - Like a Prayer 1989
Early in her career, one of Madonna's songwriting partners lived in our old NYC apartment - so she was around there a bunch, pre-fame, hatching atrocities. We found this out long, long after we started living there, otherwise we might have had to conduct some kind of ritual spirit-cleansing before moving our stuff in there.
I have no sense of what kind of figure Madonna is in terms of younger-leaning pop awareness. I should think any standing or affection is based around singles rather than albums.
92 The Sundays - Reading, writing & arithmetic 1989
Nah.
95 The Fall - This Nation's Saving Grace 1985
The Fall might make a Today's List, but not for this album.
99 The Who - Who's Next - 1971
This is where the ascendance of Queen finds its inverted mirror-image descendance - a group whose huff 'n 'puff bluster and epic-ness is perhaps insufficiently queered to thrive in today's climate. And yet they invented the rock opera - you can't get much gayer than that. Klaus Nomi has more of a hold on today's hip taste.
100 Happy Mondays - Bummed 1988
At the risk of upsetting Stylo... I don't think Happy Mondays have much currency today. Bummed's their best, though, Curiously, in terms of discovery by subsequent generations, they suffer from being both an utter anomaly and utterly bound to a historical moment, a drugGeist that is difficult to reconstruct.
So by my count that's 44 of the 100 that have Dropped Away or Hugely Slipped Down - the biggest proportion so far, almost half the total.
RISEN UP
A couple of striking developments in terms of artists from the rock past whose reputations have soared since '85
1 Beach Boys Pet sounds 1966
46 Beach Boys Surf's up 1971
Beach Boys have dramatically risen and indeed pip The Beatles to the #1 spot. (The Beatles's rep has also recovered since '85). Pet Sounds placed in the 1985 List but only at #20, so that's quite a massive leap. This seems to be a side-effect of them being namedropped by indie rockers and joining the Creation pantheon (Screamadelica etc).
It's also a restoration - Pet Sounds was the #3 album in the NME 1974 List.
The effects of New Wave and postpunk fading a bit? The settling towards a perma-canon, a Mojo / Uncut sense of history?
60 Neil Young Harvest 1972
66 Neil Young After the Goldrush 1970
63 Neil Young Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere 1969
94 Neil Young Tonight's the night 1975
Four albums from Neil.... although it's notable that the first two belong to his soppier, singer-songwriter-ish side, as opposed to the harder-rocking-stuff on Rust Never Sleeps style side. This new stature reflects his evident influence on Dinosaur Jr and Teenage Fan Club.... the touring alongside his admirers Sonic Youth... perhaps the idea of him as a grunge ancestor... a haggard uncle to Pearl Jam et al... a symbol of integrity and perseverance.
In '85, Neil Young didn't feature at all in the list!
Then again, this would have been at the height of his muddled 'Eighties, shit album after confused / confusing shit album ... and when he also dis-endeared himself by making some pro-Reagan remarks.
There's an element of restoration here too, although Young didn't feature that high on the 1974 List - indeed his two appearances are much lower than Crosby, Stills & Nash's two appearances.
A couple of other notable first-time appearances in the List
61 Scott Walker - Scott 1967
74 Nick Drake- Five leaves left 1969
THE NME 1993 LIST IN FULL
1 Beach boys Pet sounds 1966
2 Beatles Revolver 1966
3 Sex pistols Never mind the bollocks, here's the Sex pistols 1977
4 Marvin Gaye What's going on 1971
5 Stone roses The Stone roses 1989
6 Velvet underground Velvet underground + Nico 1967
7 Clash London calling 1979
8 Beatles The Beatles (= the white album) 1968
9 Byrds Younger than yesterday 1967
9 Public enemy It takes a nation of millions to hold us back 1988
10 Smiths The queen is dead 1986
11 Rolling stones Exile on Main street 1972
12 Nirvana Nevermind 1991
13 Clash The Clash 1977
14 Bob Dylan Highway 61 revisited 1965
15 Van Morrison Astral weeks 1968
16 Prince Sign o the times 1987
17 Bob Dylan Blonde on blonde 1966
18 Love Forever changes 1967
19 De la soul 3 feet high and rising 1989
20 Joy division Closer 1980
21 Primal scream Screamadelica 1991
22 Rolling stones Let it bleed 1969
23 R.E.M. Automatic for the people 1992
24 Elvis Presley The Sun sessions 1976
25 Doors The Doors 1967
26 Television Marquee moon 1977
27 Jesus and Mary chain Psychocandy 1985
28 Joni Mitchell Blue 1971
29 Jimi Hendrix Are you experienced? 1967
30 James Brown Live at The Apollo, october 24, 1962 1963
31 Patti Smith Horses 1975
32 Stevie Wonder Innervisions 1973
33 Beatles Sgt. Pepper's Lonely hearts club band 1967
34 Frank Sinatra Songs for swingin' lovers! 1956
35 Otis Redding Otis blue - Otis Redding sings soul 1965
36 John Coltrane A love supreme 1964
37 Public enemy Fear of a black planet 1990
38 David Bowie Hunky dory 1971
39 Elvis Costello and the Attractions Blood & chocolate 1986
40 David Bowie The rise and fall of Ziggy Stardust and the spiders from Mars 1972
41 Smiths Hatful of hollow 1984
42 New order Technique 1989
43 Joy division Unknown pleasures 1979
44 Pixies Surfer Rosa 1988
45 Orb The Orb's adventures beyond the Ultraworld 1991
46 Beach boys Surf's up 1971
47 Iggy Pop Lust for life 1977
48 Bob Dylan Bringing it all back home 1965
49 Hüsker dü Warehouse : songs and stories 1987
50 New order Low-life 1985
51 Echo & the Bunnymen Heaven up here 1981
52 Blondie Parallel lines 1978
53 Gram Parsons Grievous angel 1974
54 Dusty Springfield Dusty in Memphis 1969
55 Lou Reed Transformer 1972
56 Led zeppelin Led zeppelin 4 1971
57 Jam All mod cons 1978
58 Velvet underground Velvet underground 1969
59 Mothers of invention We're only in it for the money 1968
60 Neil Young Harvest 1972
61 Scott Walker Scott 1967
62 Stooges The Stooges 1969
63 Neil Young Everybody knows this is nowhere 1969
64 Beatles Rubber soul 1965
65 Aretha Franklin Greatest hits 1971
66 Neil Young After the goldrush 1970
67 David Bowie Low 1977
68 Talking heads Remain in light 1980
69 Burning spear Marcus Garvey 1975
70 Tom Waits Rain dogs 1985
71 PJ Harvey Dry 1992
72 Smiths The Smiths 1984
73 Spiritualized Lazer guided melodies 1992
74 Nick Drake Five leaves left 1969
75 Captain Beefheart and the Magic band Clear spot 1972
76 Go-betweens 16 lovers lane 1988
77 Wire Pink flag 1977
78 Bob Marley and the Wailers Natty dread 1974
79 Jam Sound affects 1980
80 Sonic youth Sister 1987
81 KLF The white room 1991
82 Birthday party Junkyard 1982
83 Kate Bush The kick inside 1978
84 Dexy's midnight runners Searching for the young soul rebels 1980
85 Bob Dylan Blood on the tracks 1975
86 Pogues Rum, sodomy & the lash 1985
87 Clash Give 'em enough rope 1978
88 Elvis Costello King of America 1986
89 Billy Bragg Talking with the taxman about poetry 1986
90 Big star The third album/Sister lovers 1978
91 Madonna Like a prayer 1989
92 Sundays Reading, writing & arithmetic 1989
93 Michael Jackson Off the wall 1979
94 Neil Young Tonight's the night 1975
95 Fall This nation's saving grace 1985
96 Public Image Ltd Metal box 1979
97 Massive attack Blue lines 1991
99 Who Who's next 1971
100 Happy mondays Bummed 1988
Not that this approach to imagining a present-day Top 100 for the under 30 set isn't entertaining-- groovy having one of my teenage faves dismissed with a brutal "nah"!-- but why not just cut to the chase and commission a 2024 Top 100 from a voice nearer the target demo? It occurs to me you have made links and references and suchlike, elsewhere in your blog empire, to a young critic who could perhaps provide invaluable insights into what such a list might look like.
ReplyDeleteOr more to the point, whether or not such a list would exist at all. Surely the indefensible inclusion of "The White Room" is proof that by 1993 the LP format had lost enough ground to singles/tracks that a Top 100 Albums list no longer meaningfully represented the canon of a music culture already splitting off to head down a thousand narrower paths?
Brotherhood? Or The Sundays album?
DeleteI think I really need 30 or 40 Kieran-like people, and even then the perspective probably be too skewed. Kieran has listened to quite a lot of Classic Albums and visited high points of the history, but his focus is overwhelmingly on the present.
I don't think such a List could really exist today and the vestigial attempts by Big Publications to do one every so often, just seems like a/ clickbait b/ unconvincing patched-together stabs at consensus.
And right on cue, this gets promoted into my Instagram feed: Pitchfork readers’ list of the best 200 albums released 1996-2021. https://pitchfork.com/features/lists-and-guides/peoples-list-25th-anniversary/
DeleteThree Radiohead albums in the top four! But some more interesting selections lower down.
Radiohead are an odd one: I like them quite a bit, but I don’t think I know anyone else who does. When they came on one of the smaller stages to do a surprise set at Glastonbury many years ago, my friends dragged me away. But they regularly score highly in these kinds of polls, so obviously they have a big constituency out there.
Well, Kieran's insights would be welcome. After his recent piece introduced me to the, uh...incomparable...RXK Nephew, I'm listening.
DeleteThe 1993 list is a totally unconvincing stab at consensus, yes. A parody compared to the years before. The "nah" was for The Sundays' "Reading..." I'd never die on the hill of including that LP on a "greatest" in that year or any year since. Back in 1990 it was a nice little confection that soothed my Smiths hangover but I can hear it objectively as somewhat bland indie fodder. Certainly unworthy of a "greatest" list.
Your other "nah" is fair, too. New Order weren't an albums band, it's true. The LPs are all good, just not the sort of albums young bands "must" listen to. The singles, however, are. It actually points to a dumb inconsistency in the NME list. If they included "Hatful of Hollow", a singles compilation, why not go with "Substance"? If New Order has released one long-playing masterpiece to go on a list like this, it's "Substance". (Even Greil Marcus gave it some love, I think.) Another sign the list was poorly thought out.
New Order in general are a tricky one for posterity. Joy Division's place in the canon is secure. New Order's contributions are nebulous, though. Critics have written plenty of love letters to them over the decades but what was their singular contribution to pop? The usual story is a vague appreciation of how they merged rock with synthpop, opening up some new avenues for other bands to explore. I don't disagree with that-- it seems obvious-- but my impression is that there were others doing some of what New Order is credited for. Maybe it was "Blue Monday", less as a piece of music than a seismic shock at a particular moment in time, in a particular way (a "rock" band with a massive 12" club hit), that secures their place?
"Here's Where The Story Ends" is a gorgeous, gorgeous single. I looked it up recently and was amazed it wasn't a UK hit (I think because Rough Trade collapsed just at its point of release), Most bands never make anything as lovely as that song. It hits the perfect middle point between Cocteaus, Smiths, and something else I can't quite put my finger on.
DeleteI might give that album a relisten - at the time, I was underwhelmed.
I am very fond of New Order but it is almost entirely for the singles - the run from the debut to "Thieves Like Us" is perfect, well apart from "Confusion" which I found a bit too Freeez "I.O.U."-ish. Some of the later ones also very nice.
Re: the Sundays' debut - Ray Shulman was really on something of a roll in this era, wasn't he? Reading Writing Arithmetic, plus the first two A.R. Kane albums, the Sugarcubes debut, a few others but that's a good couple of years.
DeleteTHE WHITE ROOM is a strange inclusion, especially when CHILL OUT was available for the picking.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nick. Instead of speculating about whether young people still listen to Public Enemy and the Stone Roses, why not put together a poll of your students? Or the writers involved with No Bells and their friends?
You want me to become a statistician?
DeleteI often suspect one motivation for these all-encompassing, cross-generational lists - particularly for outlets with some aspiration to relevancy instead of nostalgia-bait - is to big up current/recent artists as equally deserving of canonization as the Legends, thus validating the amount of press they're being given by the people making the lists. There's quite a lot of that here - the Stone Roses placement, my god
ReplyDeleteNeil Young's abrupt, brief foray into ridiculously ostentatious yokel conservatism in the early-mid 80s only made sense to me once I realized he was taking off of Devo's capitalist kayfabe act - WHY he did that is anyone's guess (maybe it had to do with all the trouble he was having with Geffen?), but it's the best explanation I can think of
Although I'm not in the best position to judge this, hip-hop fandom online seems to exist in a perpetual present that acknowledges a few artists from the '90s and otherwise begins with RODEO, PLUTO, Drake and Kanye. It feels odd to read new rappers call Gunna one of the GOATs or hear what a huge influence WHOLE LOTTA RED had in 3 years, but I realize how young they tend to be. And at the same time, there's the "real hip-hop died in the '90s except for Freddie Gibbs and Griselda" crowd.
ReplyDeleteIf it's any help to the discussion, for the past few months I've been working in an office where all the staff except for me are aged mid 20's to early 30's (basically born in the 90's) and I can tell you what their daily playlist contains (played in the background and updated daily):
ReplyDeleteBy far the majority of songs are 80's pop tunes, although it is a very specific 80's that seems to be the shared experience. Its an era that starts with 'True' by Spandau Ballet in 1983 and ends with 'Into The Groove' by Madonna in 1985. So no New Pop, Adam & The Ants, Two Tone, Sugar Hill. And certainly no S/A/W, Acid House, Bros, Five Star etc. But on heavy rotation are Phil Collins, Prince, Cyndi Lauper, Lionel Richie (yet noticeably not Jacko, I suspect due to his personal life rather than any musical failings).
The godheads of pop are definitely regarded as Queen, Fleetwood Mac, Elton John and Kate Bush and they get a lot of play (interesting to me as, growing up in the late 70's to mid 80's, this was the taste of more conservative teachers and parents?). Abba and The Bee Gees are also up there but taken slightly less seriously. 'Indie' is represented solely but strongly by The Cure, The Smiths and (less so) Joy Division. Britpop is nowhere, which surprised me as I thought that might be ripe for nostalgia for that demographic.
The 60's doesn't really feature at all either, never heard any Beatles or Dylan, although The Rolling Stones occasionally crop up (I assume as they are still releasing records and are seen as more international and jet setting than The Beatles). No Motown, Funk or Soul really, maybe the occasional Stevie Wonder, but R&B of any kind seems to begin with TLC/Aaliyah mid 90's (strangely, another big surprise, I never hear anything vaguely hip hop or gangsta related from that era except Eminem).
Not much modern music is played, as I heard this tends to cause more divisions between people and 'we need to play stuff that everybody knows'. However, the most recent style of music which seems to provoke love and nostalgia across the board, whatever my colleagues personal taste, is pop-punk. You don't hear any 70's punk, the new year zero is located somewhere in the late 90's with Green Day and Blink 182. I hadn't realised quite what an impact this music had on a generation, it really seems to have successfully crossed the pop/alternative divide as it sought to do.
Most of the people I've chatted with are casual pop fans rather than committed music seekers so maybe this makes a difference but is probably more representative? The most frequent comment I've heard is 'I love/know this song from this film/TV show/advert/Tik Tok post'...
Ah, what you are describing fits my vague impressions rather closely.
DeleteI would throw in a caveat about the Beatles - White Album/Abbey Road/Let it Be era Beatles are alive and well with many young listeners. It's 1963-65 (some exceptions of course) I think less so. Probably because the 68-70 era is closer to our modern pop sensibilities than anything touching old timey 50s and early 60s rock and roll.
DeleteThe rise of Queen, who I like just fine but were always a singles band to me - every single one of their albums are otherwise atrocious, as the progenitor of our pop present is depressing to me personally. But they are probably the most popular and beloved "classic rock" band right now.
DeleteRe: The JAMC - I don't think I agree that they have been dropped totally. They were a hip reference point in my end of the Millenial pool (I'm turning 40 this year) especially after their inclusion on the Lost in Translation soundtrack. The few times that they went on tour since their return heralded sold out shows. And currently on Sirius XMU, the "indie station," a term that is meaningless nowadays, plays them quite often including their new single. Granted - the people listening to Sirius XMU might be on the older end of the Millenial pool as well! But I don't believe they have been forgotten.
Re: Sinatra. Agree it seems a surprise inclusion, especially given Kevin Rowland’s ‘I don’t believe you like Frank Sinatra’ jibe, which appears elsewhere on the list. Aside from how old his best albums are now, Michael Buble and Robbie Williams killed off any remaining cred the crooning era may have had c.2000. And you’d be surprised how many people will tell you that Frank or Bing ‘aren’t singing’ - the long influence of post-Whitney/Maria vocal styles.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, if you did a list like this in the UK today, I think there would be a lot more jazz records on it - thanks to the success of Ezra Collective, Sons of Kemet etc.
Someone who was about to become an influence in the mid-90s, but has now dropped away: Jeff Buckley.
Regarding Elvis Costello, I can never help but think of Pauline Kael's appraisal of director Paul Schrader:
ReplyDelete"He's smarter than he is talented."
The first appearance of Drake and Walker is noted- two artists who would be *major* name droppees throughout the 90s - though "Scott 4" is usually the Walker album touted for hipster cred (not least due to its lack of commercial success).
Public Enemy dropping from the public/critical consciousness is indeed quite puzzling; I'm old enough to remember them as unimpeachable - this tends to go hand in hand with the curious rehabilitation of NWA - perhaps Dre's ongoing influence is the key difference?
It's funny, but I would have put Scott Walker down as definitely dropped away. Or really, he seems to be an artist that always seemed to drop away until he released a new record. I well remember the buzz that used to develop when rumours started that he was about to release a new LP, and I always used to think "Ah! Scott Walker!", like I was being reminded of some old children's TV programme, such as Chigley or something.
ReplyDeleteI think Give 'em Enough Rope is a great album acktually, and that the two worst Clash LP's are the two most highly rated ones. That said, the one Clash song that seems to be a lasting reference point is "This Is England".
REM and New Order are the same kind of band, I think, essentially dull and rather unexciting, but very easy on the ear. Their secret is that there is comparatively little emotion in their music, so they don't disturb or stretch the listener too much. You can listen to them for quite a long time without becoming either distraught or exhilarated. The aural equivalent of tea and biscuits, the pair of them,
With The Who, I could easily see Tommy becoming a major presence again, especially with the connection to Elton. I suspect if anything from them goes forward, it will be the aspects that the sensible critics tended to loathe.
I think there is emotion there, but it's not extreme emotion - it's low key, undramatic. That's where a lot of life happens, especially once you're post-adolescent. R.E.M. is about vague yearnings and implorings. Vagueness, as an emotional spectrum, seems like a terrain from which songs can be written - it's where a lot of people live.
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DeleteRe: Sinatra / Crooning: come Christmas time though everyone loves a crooner. If Mariah is the now Christmas/Holiday novelty Queen, then Buble is its current King. He simply dominates for 4-6 weeks out of the year on streaming playlists. In fact, that's just true of the whole crooning era/genre. Even Sinatra scored a top 20 hit on the Billboard chart this year (his first since 1967) with his version of Jingle Bells. The holiday charts and streaming playlists are where the crooners live today.
DeleteIt's funny - I'm half Italian and grew up in New Jersey so Sinatra was part of the furniture for me growing up and yet I don't really think I started to actually listen to him until only a few years ago. I've now gone to appreciate a lot of his albums (mainly from the 50s) as far more interesting than I gave them credit for (and him as a performer). Last year, I picked up In the Wee Small Hours at a CD/record store near my house (I still enjoy buying CDs, never got into vinyl) and was chatting with the owner. He told me that Sinatra proved to be popular starting point for people currently looking to explore the pre-rock era and that his albums have sold well at his store. So, like they say with golf (I don't play or ever plan to), perhaps you just age into listening to him!
New Order little emotion? Maybe you haven´t heard Scarlett Johansson singing Bizarre Love Triangle, her voice is even sexier than her physique. Seriously it´s incredible. There´s also a very good acoustic version by an australian group called Tierra
DeleteI like New Order well enough, and I would be much more positive about their albums, especially Low-life, than Simon. But their music is pleasant, rather than earth-shattering. I suppose part of this is the contrast with the turmoil of Joy Division.
DeleteBoth New Order and REM are pretty bland, frankly, but I quite like bland.
I have just tried to "steel man" my Tommy argument, and have immediately struck gold:
ReplyDeletehttps://tommythemusical.com/
I hang out at a local cafe where are a couple of girls (somewhere between 18 and 21) serve. 90% of what constitutes their playlists is pre-millennial pop & rock, with some classic indie: there’s a lot of Joy Division & New Order; soft rock / MOR classics from the likes of Fleetwood Mac, REM and Cheap Trick; some golden oldies by Sam Cooke and Elvis; lots of 80s pop (Madonna, Lauper, Jackson); a few obscure indie / post-punk classics that I never would’ve heard of at their age in the 90s (eg The Passions’ I’m In Love In a German Film Star’). The Stones & Dylan crop up occasionally. There’s a bit of LCD Soundsystem-typified millennial indie but surprisingly little that’s current. In general it seems like they’ve rummaged through Spotify and their parents’ record collections for anything from the last 50 years that appeals / has a great tune regardless of cool / uncool criteria. Not snootily saying this is a bad thing, just an observation.
ReplyDelete“Soft rock / MOR classics from the likes of Fleetwood Mac, REM and Cheap Trick…” Hard to express how weird that list would have sounded in 1985. It reminds me of one of my favorite lines about music in science fiction, where a character is described as “putting on some Classical music: Beethoven or the Beatles or something like that.” I can’t remember the writer, sadly. Possibly William Gibson?
DeleteI always play a little game with dates to remind myself of how deeply, deeply weird the current algorithmic-retro culture is.
DeleteLet's assume it's pretty widespread that young people are on the same wavelength as these girls at the local cafe. They're listening to music spanning the last, what, 60-70 years?
So now go back and imagine it's 1984. You walk into a local cafe where the music on the PA system is The Glenn Miller Orchestra, The Mills Brothers, The Ink Spots, Bing Crosby, The Andrews Sisters, etc. With some jazz, ragtime, and swing thrown in. That's the equivalent.
Yes, I know it's happening in a certain socioeconomic context that's influencing the choice of music, but it does seem commonplace. I can't go anywhere in 2024 without hearing the crap I used to hate as a teenager. In the 80s I might have jokingly defined a future dystopia as a society in which, wherever I went, I had to listen to Boy George, Madonna, and Wham in ubiquitous, deathless rotation. Here we are.
Ha ha, perhaps. Tbc I’m just imperiously looking down on the young; tbh against my better instincts I’m starting to do something not dissimilar myself. The algo is the ultimate Jamesononian (sic?) postmodern technology. It affects us all.
DeleteI had a weird experience in the pub a few months ago, when a bloke in his early 20's walked in wearing a leather jacket with a logo of The Exploited on the back which was EXACTLY THE SAME as the leather jacket that a kid in my school used to wear in 1983.
Deleteby 1993 everything was getting reissued and reappraised which would account for the inclusion of Scott Walker and Nick Drake. But I cannot explain why both The Cash and Elvis Costello were still included, particularly the latter. Of course Neil Young was rehabilitated by Dinosaur Jr, Sonic Youth and Grunge, so his inclusion was easy to explain. The Beach Boys had plenty of stuff reissued in the nineties and many bands name-checked them so that's one likely reason they featured strongly in the rankings. Just seeing the 'dance' entries makes it obvious the NME staff who complied this list were still 'rockist' at heart.
ReplyDeleteI found this 1993 list infinitely depressing and off putting, for reasons that I couldn’t quite define at first, much more so than the 1974 and 1985 versions. It made me think about David Stubbs’s line about spending a year listening to Stockhausen. There are records I love there, but this list makes me not want to listen to them ever again.
ReplyDeleteThinking about it some more, I think there are three things going on here. For a start, all the selections are the blandest, most obvious rock crit picks. Swordfishtrombones at #6 may be wildly, ludicrously, wrong. But at least it’s a choice. No room for idiosyncrasies in 1993.
My second thought was that the earlier lists had real reasons to exist. In 1974, they were saying “this music that we love is Important and will stand the test of time”. In 1985, they were righting historic wrongs, trying to change the present by setting out a different version of the past. In 1993, they were just thinking that this was something that music papers could do to fill some space.
And then finally it occurred to me that the biggest problem with the 1993 list is how badly it handles the recent past. 1985 to 1993 were incredibly exciting years for hip-hop, techno and rock, but there is scarcely any evidence for that on the NME’s list. Straight Outta Compton, Isn’t Anything, Loveless, Paul’s Boutique, Licenced to Ill, Raising Hell, The Low End Theory, Selected Ambient Works 85-92, Model 500’s Classics, 69, Foxbase Alpha…. all ignored.
Instead of which, the New Thing is represented by Public Enemy, De La Soul, Spiritualized and the Orb (fine), the Stone Roses (sigh) and the Sundays (WTF?).
From today’s pop kids’ perspective, I guess the big misses would be Just For A Day and Souvlaki, Treasure and Heaven or Las Vegas.
Although one of my kids did ask me about the KLF the other day, having stumbled across them on YouTube, so maybe the NME got that one right. Although I think it’s the conceptual stunt stuff that has survived and resonates still today, not the music.
Well, there's another reason why the list is depressing which is that the NME is not what it was, either in '85 or '74. And there's another music weekly paper that's been doing a more interesting job for the past six years, both with the present and in terms of reconfiguring a sense of the past.
DeleteI don't think we ever did at 100 Greatest type List at Melody Maker, but around this time we did the Unknown Pleasures booklet of essays about forgotten albums. Some of which (like Tusk, which I wrote about) would now be considered Canon fodder in some quarters at least.
On MM being more interesting, I can't resist mentioning one of my personal favorite oddities-- Paul Lester's 1991 review of Electronic's debut, the Marr/Sumner's collab, an over the top rave in which he called it "one of the greatest albums ever made". I don't know if that was a burst of wink-wink hyperbole or not, but I loved the LP and MM's standing shot way up with me for publishing that review. It does make me wonder how different and better a 1993 MM "greatest" list might have been.
DeletePaul Lester is an obsessive New Order fan -- he might even have said nice things about records by Revenge and The Other Two.
DeleteThere’s no doubt a Melody Maker list at that time would have substituted out the typical Cannon stuff with more leftfield choices and made for more fascinating viewing. However, to make a small defence case for NME’s 93 list, it now had to represent double the period of rock & pop history compared to 1974 and another 8.5 years on the previous 1985 one. Of course the problem with newer 2010s and 2020s lists it that they no longer go with 100, it has to be 500 or 1000 so a lot less interesting to browse though as the number placing are meaningless to read – everything is just stuffed in. Not sure if anyone has seen those recent Uncut mag special publications ,The Top 500 of the 1970s and 1980s. where very little is left out and so the fun goes out of it after reading the top 20.
DeleteBack to the 1993 list and Ed’s point on the recent past choices. Might seem hard for the Pitchfork generation to fathom how on earth ‘Loveless’ could be left out (and it is nuts that it was) but in the context of late 1993 the shoegaze bands had been getting a real drubbing for over a year and even though MBV were excluded from the purge their stock would have decreased a bit. Also, while widely considered an amazing record on release there had been a slight tinge of disappointment that the best two tracks had already been out on the previous EPs and that the rest of the album was merely an affirmation. The elevation of it to a sacred scroll of modern music in the early 2000s was mainly instigated by American fans. Over his side of the pond Isn’t Anything is probably more fondly thought of for the most part among the diehards. And yes, including ‘Selected Ambient Works’ would have been the right side of history choice over The Orb or KLF..
As well as Paul Lester, Ned Raggert is also a staunch advocate for ‘Technique’ – he did a great piece about it on The Quietus. Perhaps it’s another "you had to be there, you had to be then" one from early 89 but always loved it from start to finish myself I have to say!
Anonymous is correct on the burgeoning CD reissue programmes having more of an impact on this poll. More old stuff was becoming known by both readers and critics. In addition, you had the current artists in the early 90s continuously name checking the previous decade's records and influences a lot more than had been the case up to then. The Rebellious Jukebox section in MM for example. It became a badge of honour to overtly list off the cool stuff you liked. The launch of Mojo was only around the corner so in early 94 so the Cannon was only going to get more Canonical from here on in.
DeleteAs in the 1985 list there is nothing from the New Pop era like ‘Dare’ or ‘Lexicon Of Love’– seemed to be still a no go zone in the early 90s and the ‘Unknown Pleasures’ Lost albums book that Melody Maker put out two years later even included an essay on ‘Lexicon Of Love’. Not much post punk as well (no ‘Entertainment’ ‘Cut’) but again, they only had 100 records to work with in trying to represent the consensus in each strata.
The two Jam inclusions may have been boosted by the rehabilitation of Weller during 1993 due to the 'Wildwood' album being a big hit – maybe the album responsible for kickstarting the upcoming ‘this is ‘proper music mate’ strand of Dad Rock.
Sugar – grunge for adults a J Mascis disparagingly and correctly put it. Never took to it either.
Simon, your bafflement at the amount of Shane McGowan tributes that poured out in December is wholly justified and yes it is mainly the insiders that he’s lionised by, here in Ireland anyway. The reality is there’s minuscule gold over 40 years for his so called genius. I won’t go on a Pogues rant though! This recent crop of nu trad acts acts led by Lankum, John Francis Flynn and rest have been referencing McGowan / Pogues a bit so they are possibly not up for Dropping Away anytime soon.
If the Stone Roses have dropped off (which I seriously doubt), then that's very recent. The Stone Roses' debut was a totem of British indie throughout the 90s and 2000s, what with Britpop and landfill indie. And what's the current UK no. 1 album? John Squire and Liam Gallagher. I think the reason you assert that is because the Stone Roses never took off in America. A British list released today of the top 100 albums would still have The Stone Roses in the top 10, I wager.
ReplyDeleteThe Mondays at 100 - strikes me as damning with faint praise, after the Yes Please backlash. And yes, you are completely right that the Mondays have completely dropped off (I said so myself in an earlier post). This is what's known as a crying shame. The best don't necessarily win. (Though oddly, Shaun Ryder and Bez are more famous now than at the Mondays' peak).
That segues into a further point I wish to make: if these lists have any kind of real utility, it's not to reflect popular tastes, but to highlight albums that deserve to be remembered. That's one of the main roles of the critic, surely? Such a list containing albums that have dropped off is a cause for applause. It's better that they contain Jackson C. Frank than, say, Rumours.
Speaking of which, I don't understand why Rumours is heralded so. I listened to it over this weekend, and it struck me as completely ordinary AOR. Considering the success of the album, I wonder if it's literally just me.
I am not sure if it makes the treatment of Bummed better or worse, but I think I am right in saying that this was another one of those cases where the #100 slot was left open for readers to fill. Bummed won either because it got the most votes, or because the most articulate and convincing case was made for it. Either way, it could be taken as evidence that the readers of the NME had better taste than the writers at that time.
DeleteI think that any British band that didn't (or didn't want to) make it in the USA has a big disadvantage nowadays, as the profile of artists on YouTube and various streaming services is based on algorithms, which in turn feed off basic bulk popularity.
DeleteI think the reputation of The Stone Roses' debut makes sense when it's held up, specifically, as an indie classic. I always pick up on an air of resentment when it's placed alongside classics in rock & pop, as a whole. In my experience, listeners who dig yer Queens or yer Springsteens don't rate The Roses, at all. They just think they sound lame. If your ears were adjusted to C86 or early Creation singles, on the other hand, The Stone Roses would sound positively robust.
Delete"I have met people who rep for Movement, a barmy opinion" A bit harsh Simon!
ReplyDeleteDefinitely a favourite, but certainly a "feels like it was made for me" type record. It's certainly not a classic, not an album I would recommend and probably feels anaemic to most off the back of JD. Mark Fisher got it right when he linked it to the first Darkstar record - both embody an ambient depression, an icy numbness, Another Grey World.
Both artists also abandoning these paths, New Order "the sleek cybernetic mausoleum that Martin Hannett built for them" (MF) for the stadium and Darkstar's followup sounding like Animal Collective (from my disappointed memory).
I still get sense of loss from both records, a thread not followed through. Feel like something even stronger in the same brittle mode could be made. I'm sure at this point I haven't just overlooked it...
But back on topic I agree that NO's stock has bottomed. The late 00s/early 10s with LCD Soundsystem etc. probably would have been the last boom as a reference point.
Funnily enough I think the Peter Saville designs have endured better - a knew a young lad (18/19?) who frequently wore a NO t-shirt. Could only name a couple of songs when pressed and got it at a gig with his parents!
The Unknown Pleasures T-shirt is everywhere, our neighbours's kid had one when he was 12 - and I'm fairly sure the album is not something they'd be into.
DeleteI knew Mark was a fan of Movement but the first time I ever saw that opinion expressed was by Kodwo Eshun in The Wire https://musicpresspantheon.blogspot.com/2022/09/kodwo-eshun-joy-division-closer-new.html.
Yer Mark quoted these a lot. Havent read these before, excellent stuff.
DeleteA shame indeed.
Been meaning to read More Brilliant than the Sun for ages. Wasnt it meant to be reprinted a few years ago?
Regarding New Order "abandoning paths", which Kodwo Eshun also more or less states (they "pulled back towards something more manageable"), from my perspective the idea that NO "switched" or "took a new path" negates what makes them special. While the style of their music changed in important and obvious ways, the brilliance of NO is precisely that, as individuals, they walked the same path from 1978 onwards. It's just that the path wasn't a music style, it was-- well, in "All The Way" on "Technique", it was "to find the truth inside yourself/And not depend on anyone". Or as Tony Wilson might have said, acting on principles of praxis; or as Hooky might have said, "We do whatever the fuck we want to do." That is the defining thread that makes "Movement" and "Technique" the work of one band on one path-- at least to my ears.
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ReplyDeleteRandom observation: no Can in any of the three lists. I think Simon said some while ago that Can are fairly unique in that they have consistently enjoyed high critical standing (at least in the time span covered by these charts), but the lists point to them being majorly undervalued at three distinct junctures. And more to the point, how would they fare in an "NME-like publication" today?
DeleteNo Can, No Neu!, No Faust or Harmonia either. It would require Cope’s Krautrocksampler and all the subsequent reissues to elevate the Germans’ standing.
DeleteAnd where the hell are Kraftwerk while we’re taking about it.
Ps. Movement is the best NO album, no contest.
Also, TG’s 20 Jazz Funk Greats would soar over most of this piffle today.
ReplyDeleteCope's Japrocksampler (is that an OK term today?) was a pretty good read too.
DeleteTwo other Dropped Away footnotes:
ReplyDeleteThe poor ill-starred Go-Betweens. It's almost poignantly sad to see them finally win critical respect with the album they released right before they gave up and parted company. (They Dropped Away, but did they ever really arrive in the first place?)
U2's omission is interesting. 1985 I get. But with "Achtung Baby" having somewhat restored their reputation in the early 90s, I'd have expected a grudging entry with either that LP or "The Joshua Tree" in the lower reaches of the hundred. Maybe it's justified, I just find it funny. I remember the contrast in the amount and intensity of coverage between the US press and the music weeklies. It's like U2 weren't so much hated as shoved away, beneath serious consideration, as invisible as a public utility. I've always felt the most damning judgment of U2 has been the glaring absence of serious critical consideration. Definitely a Dropped Away. I'd be shocked if any young bands today see them as an influence to reckon with.
I think Bono was always an obstacle to critical acceptance for U2, there was something about him that used to rub people up the wrong way. He seemed to lack that essential bit of charm that could win everyone over.
DeleteYes that is weird about U2. An odd group - they released a lot of undeniable singles, I would have said - 'Pride', "new Year's Day', the three off Joshua Tree, a few of the early ones circa Boy too... I liked the switch around to a would-be raunchy sound on Achtung.... 'One' .... even as late as 'Beautiful Day'.... I can't imagine feeling the impulse to put on a whole album, though.... they seem to work best as something that just pops up on the radio. And they remain resolutely uncool.
ReplyDeleteThen there's the massive bank of ill-will they've built through inserting that awful album of theirs into every iPhone in the world...
That was U2's secret sauce for 2 decades or so; even if you thought yer man was insufferable there'd be a Stay (Faraway So Close) or New Year's Day to get on the radio. Madonna had the same knack, if you didn't find her repellent to begin with. Maybe Queen too if you are feeling profoundly generous. But all those acts could be defined by ambition alone, the drive to remain ubiquitous
DeleteFor fuck's sake, why are you denying the basic contempt that U2 have generated, well before the iPhone debacle? U2 have always been the safest, blandest, most milquetoast choice for critics who simply did not want to engage with anything a bit challenging. It's thanks to the mentality of the U2 defender that these bastard lists fail in being interesting. Oh, they'll put Trout Mask Replica somewhere in the mid-50s, but never 20 Jazz Funk Greats, or Tilt (a genuine masterpiece), or Suicide's debut, or anything by Nina Simone, or anything by Merle Haggard. And this is personal, but the critical vaunting of U2 is a crucial part of the atmosphere that has led to the Happy Mondays not receiving their righteous dues. "No, the Mondays are too coarse, but you know who you can play at a dinner party? U2." If you tippexed out U2 from music history, would anything change? Nothing at all.
DeleteStylo, I don't think anyone's defending U2, only mentioning that they are a noticeable absence. In fact, part of the reason I mentioned U2 is precisely because they were a safe, bland choice I'd have expected the NME selectorate to make.
DeleteBesides, I think the critics agreed with you, didn't they? At least the NME writers. Not only did they fail to make the 1993 top 100, but even when the NME expanded to 500 albums in 2013 they didn't grab a single entry. Not one. (Super Furry Animals got three!) Are you sure critics are elevating U2 at the expense of anyone, let alone the Mondays?
My own entirely impressionistic, subjective view is that, outside of the States, critics have either gleefully torched them with a flamethrower (picture Rick Dalton in "Once Upon A Time In Hollywood"), offered mild praise as a duty of professional objectivity (like Simon did above), covered them like weather events ("cloudy with some U2 in the evening at Wembley"), or simply ignored them. This is really obvious to me, having watched their rise in America where mags like Rolling Stone accepted them as rock gods, heirs to The Clash, and so forth. The contrast in critical treatment is striking; in my opinion both extremes are wrong.
Oh, I notice the Mondays didn't make the NME's 2013 top 500 either. Could it be that U2 and the Happy Mondays are secretly united, shivering in the shadows of critical neglect, part of a blacklist brotherhood...?
A friend of mine once sent me reviews of five successive U2 albums, each of which being described as a "return to form".
DeleteOkay, U2 are more Q than NME. That's a given. The question is why the Mondays weren't in the NME top 500. Considering that Pills N Thrills and Bellyaches invented Britpop (easily proven, just listen to it), such an absence is historical revisionism.
The point you make about American criticism is bang on. It's why the Clash have been treated as a superior rock band, rather than a punk band. And it's why U2 got the acclaim, and the Mondays stood no chance.
I was surprised they didn't make the Top 500, too, although by 2013 the NME was surely written by a team of interns?
DeleteThe Mondays stood no chance in America. To be fair, none of those bands did. When the Mondays were erupting in Manchester, America (apart from NY and LA) was just discovering bands like The Cure and Love and Rockets; Depeche Mode had to fill football stadiums before Rolling Stone would give them a feature article. If the Mondays had toured the States endlessly, notched under-the-radar gold records, and sold out Giants Stadium for five consecutive nights with guest appearances from Flea and Lenny Kravitz, they might-- might-- have gotten their due from American critics in, oh, 1996 or 1997.
Back to U2: I meant to add, above, that "If you tippexed out U2 from music history, would anything change? Nothing at all" does pretty much sum them up. I think that's true, basically, and it's strange because I don't think there are many bands who have attained U2's Olympian commercial *and* critical success who are basically negligible in hindsight. But I suppose that's the fun of analyzing the Dropped Away.
I don't know: I feel like the Edge's guitar tone - that clean, trebly chime - is all over 21st century pop/rock. Having said that, I couldn't cite a single specific example. But I certainly think you hear him more than you do, say, Angus Young or Slash.
DeleteAnd (whisper it) isn't there a bit of the Edge in Mark Day's playing on songs like Hallelujah and God's Cop?
I'm a huge U2 fan*, myself, but I recognise that is an accident of history. If you were the right age when War hit, it's hard to explain to anyone who wasn't there what a big deal they were. And of course they have done a great deal to tarnish their legacy since the 1990s.
(*Not huge to the extent of ever listening to any of the albums post-Achtung Baby, that is. But I still love those first six records and the associated B-sides and live albums.)
Didn't The Edge cop his guitar tone from The Comsat Angels? I don't think he was unique for his era, or even exceptional when compared to John McGeoch, Will Sargeant, Keith Levene etc.
DeleteTrue. I’ve never heard the Comsat Angels, but as you say that bluesless sound was common property among guitarists of that era. Bernard Sumner, Robert Smith and Charlie Burchill being other examples. The Edge was certainly the most commercially successful with it, though, and so probably the one that younger musicians are most likely to have heard.
DeleteThat last comment was me, by the way.
DeleteComsat Angels are top banana:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HZuKm-xdiw
They are! Thanks for the tip
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ReplyDeleteThe month before the All-Time Top 100 list, the NME published Top 50 lists for the 60s, 70s, and 80s.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/607080.html
And both 'Dare' and 'Lexicon Of Love' high up in the 80s one so New Pop wasn't being ignored then! No 'Isn't Anything' though.
DeleteOnly one 'metal' album on the list and it's not even Black Sabbath, shocking! I guess metal never fell off, it was never hip but you would've imagined with the rise of Grunge some forerunners might've been included. But i guess heavy metal, like disco, was, in 1993, still considered too naff for rehabilitation, for the NME staff writers at least.
ReplyDeleteTrue. At least put Sabbath in there. Sounds would likely have included some they had kept going and produced a list in 93.
DeleteThese people were horrible snobs who thought they were better than everyone else.
DeleteI'll tell you one band whose reputation seems to have improved (and they have never made these lists as far as I can tell) and it's Depeche Mode. They were a common reference point for Nu-Rockers and are now being praised by current hot acts like Olivia Rodrigo (who was seen at their LA show last year). When I saw them at Barclays in NY last October, I noticed that there were a decent amount of 20 somethings in the crowd including the group of young women sitting in my section losing their shit for Dave.
ReplyDeletePublic Enemy haven't dropped away I don't think - they place very high on Pitchfork lists, and they're clearly forefathers of a lot of alternative hip hop of the last decade (Death Grips, JPEGMAFIA, Danny Brown). That ultra-aggressive style of experimental rap is itself on its way out in alt hip hop, though a lot of recent rage music/soundcloud rap e.g. Ken Carson has a blown-out, maximalist aesthetic that has parallels with how PE overloaded their songs with samples. In general, I think the production-over-lyrics focus that hip hop has taken in the last decade makes PE more legible than any 90's boom bap, which seemed like the gold standard of hip hop in critics' taste for a long time. Perhaps what's going on is that it's really just the Bomb Squad who are influential, rather than the group as a whole.
ReplyDeleteREM - yeah, in the 2000's Pitchfork wrote about them like they were the Beatles of the 80's, and the 90's stuff feels like a universe away from where music is now (even their country tinge feels like it's not going particularly far, so you couldn't see them as an influence on, say, Big Thief). Interesting that Husker Du and REM, presumably the bands in Amerindie seen as the most significant at the time, have dropped away. Black Flag as well, now that I think about it - "Damaged" is presumably an enduring reference point for hardcore bands, but I wonder how many people are listening to "My War" and onwards.
Professor Griff has definitely dropped away lol. A shame, cuz I used to love his "Jews are born with tails" routines.
Delete